Ex-Radio Sales Woman Turns Eight Years of
Selling Experience Into a Super-Successful
Copywriting Career
CG: Hi Susan. I'm going to start by getting familiar with your background and then we’ll spend some time talking about the promotion you wrote: The 15 Minute Guide to Winning Presentations. How did you become a copywriter?
Susan: Well, I went to the University of Denver. I graduated in 1969 with a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration. My major was marketing and I did a little copywriting in college. My first job out of school was as a copywriter for a very small two-person ad agency.
CG: Now, when you were in college did you have the goal of becoming a copywriter?
Susan: No. All I knew was I wanted to be in marketing.
CG: So when you moved to a job at a larger agency, did you specialize in any particular area?
Susan: No the agency was a large, but local, general advertising agency in Denver.
A Big Break From a Dead-end Job
At an Ad Agency
CG: How did you get the job? Did you have an interview and provide some examples of your writing?
Susan: Well, I haven’t a clue. I really can’t remember, but I will tell you I only lasted three months.
CG: What happened?
Susan: Well, the agency was so large, someone would bring the projects to me in a folder with some explanation and some forms and stuff stuck to the outside. I would write the copy and then someone would come take it away. I never got to meet with the art director, sit in a brainstorming session or be part of the background or the strategy for the campaign.
CG: That's kind of a strange approach.
Susan: Well, I thought so, too. Anyway, I went to the lady who ran the copywriting department to see if I could take Friday off. I'm not really sure she and I got along, but she said, “Well, you just started here.”
I said, “But I'm getting all my work done.” Anyhow, the answer was no. So out I went. But that was fine, because it was not the kind work environment that I wanted.
How a Lack of Direction Hinders Your Progress
CG: Yes, it sounds kind of strange.
Susan: This wasn’t my first job. I started with a small agency and I just moved on from there. Then I got with this bigger agency and that's why I left.
CG: What kind of copy did you write for them?
Susan: One of the jobs I remember working on was for a retirement community in North Denver, or something like that. It was one of those communities where couples might sell their house and move into this community. They would be living independently in their own little house. But as they needed more care or needed meals or whatever - they would be upgraded to assisted living and then later on upgraded to nursing.
CG: Now when you were at the agency it sounded as if you didn't have a mentor, correct?
Susan: The person who was checking my work was the individual who was second in command. Once in a while, she would come in talk about stuff, but I never got to be part of a creative team. Now, I did eventually get to meet some of the account execs and some of the art people, but it was never on a business basis. It was never, “We want you in the office for a brainstorming session,” or anything like that.
Why Selling Is the Best Teacher
for Learning Direct Marketing
CG: How long have you been a freelancer?
Susan: I have been freelance for 26 years.
CG: And how did you go from being employed to being freelancer?
Susan: My next step was getting hired as the continuity director for a radio station where I wrote the ads.
CG: Now that sounds like it might be a little bit more exciting than what you were doing.
Susan: Yes. I trafficked and wrote ads for the commercial messages that ran on the station. It was a rock station. So I was writing stuff like, “Come to the London House, it's ladies night on Thursday.” I remember that I interviewed with that radio station eight months before they hired me.
CG: And you stayed on the copy side?
Susan: Well I realized very quickly that I was doing all the work and the salesmen were getting all the money, so I went into sales. I have to tell you that being in sales was the best training for what I do now that I could ever imagine in my life. I actually went into radio sales and I sold radio for eight years.
Why Copywriting Is the Sales Process on Paper
CG: So the jump from sales to marketing really worked well for you.
Susan: Yes, but let me describe how direct marketing is different than advertising. Advertising is designed to change attitude. Direct marketing is designed to change behavior. So everything I write is designed to get someone to do something. Whether it’s to ask for a free booklet or go into a store or make a phone call or do something or buy a product.
CG: That’s a great description of the two.
Susan: All I do now is take what I learned in sales and put it on paper. When I write, I imagine sitting across the desk from the individual who is making the buying decision and making the pitch to them.
CG: Let’s back up a minute. Would you say that, when you got into sales, you were learning as you went?
Pick Your Specialty
Susan: Well, yes, I was learning, but really, I was selling. But the fact is, the sales process on paper is what I do now. So I am just translating that sales experience into a written experience.
CG: Now do you specialize in any particular product?
Susan: Yes. I am very much a specialist. I do nothing but direct marketing whether it’s online or offline. I do nothing but business-to-business.
CG: Did you pick that area or fall into it as your specialty?
Susan: No, I evolved into it.
CG: And how did that happened?
Susan: I realized that (a) the consumer is an idiot, and (b) I really understand business people and why they make decisions. Over time, I realized that I prefer selling and writing for business people than marketing to consumers.
CG: Why is that?
Susan: The consumer’s decision-making process is an absolute mystery to me. I could never write for non-profits. Non-profit requires a personal, softer communication with all sorts of quotes and building a relationship. It’s selling the product. That’s not what I do. Now, 90 percent of what I am doing is not selling the product, it's trying to generate leads for companies that are selling really high-ticket items.
Now, every once in a rare while - if I have a client who I’m doing a B-to-B project for - and they ask me to do a B-to-C project, and if it falls into categories I am comfortable with, I might do that project. But, most of the time, when someone calls me for B-to-C marketing I turn them over to colleagues.
CG: Well, that's a great position to be in. That is, to be able to turn work down.
Susan: Yes it is. But it took me 26 years.
CG: Yes, but it’s still a measure of your success. Speaking of success do you remember the first piece you wrote?
Susan: Absolutely. Not only do I remember it, but it was back in Denver. I started my copywriting career in Denver. I left Denver, but I came back in 2003 and went to a meeting of the Rocky Mountain Direct Marketing Association (I’m now a very active member.), and sitting across the table from me was my first client, GEICO - which was then GEFCO, the Government Employee Financial Corporation. Now of course, it’s GEICO, but they sell to consumers now. My first job was to write a letter offering a CD to customers and prospects that was paying 14 percent. Don’t we wish those days were back?
How One Project Opens the Door To Many More…
CG: Sure do. Now the GEICO client, that was your first break into copywriting?
Susan: Here’s the story: I had moved out of the radio business after eight years and decided to become a real estate agent. I got a job in commercial real estate, which I hated, because the spread between the effort and the reward often was months. I could not function under those circumstances. I had met my boyfriend in the radio business. He’d gotten a job to open an office for a direct marketing agency in Denver. One day he got a call at the agency from GEFCO. They needed somebody who could write their marketing copy and he gave them my name.
CG: Very nice.
Susan: I did one job. Then they gave me another job, and another job. Four months later I quit my real-estate job and became a full time freelance copywriter.
How to Get a Truckload of Clients
CG: That's a great story.
Susan: But I never would have said, “I’m going to become a freelance copywriter. It fell in my lap.”
CG: So I’m curious… how do you drum up clients?
Susan: Well, in the old days, I was very active in the Rocky Mountain Direct Marketing Association. I still am. When I moved to San Diego, I was active in a San Diego Direct Marketing Association. That helps. Actually, here’s a list of everything I’ve done: (1) networking at associations, (2) built a list of direct marketing agencies around the country and I marketed to them through the mail. Eventually I found a service out of Canada called Box Pilot.
And they do guided voice messaging. So I combined direct mail letters that I sent to agencies with phone calls that I could record myself. So it sounded like I was a leaving a message for somebody. This company actually guides the call. If somebody answers the phone they say, can I have extension X, or Y, or Z.
And they actually make sure they get into the voice mail of the individual I want to leave the message with.
If someone answers the phone they disconnect. They actually just want to leave the recorded message I composed.
CG: That’s a very clever way of getting your name out there.
Susan: Yes, and it sounds like a real message.
CG: What other techniques are on your list?
Susan: I also run an ad in a national direct marketing magazine. It's in the classified section, but it's a display ad, and I have been doing that for years. I am listed on some online copywriting sites so when people do searches online - I will come up on their site.
I have my own website, which I had revamped in August of last year based on best practices in the industry. And I am now paying someone to do search engine optimization.
CG: I must say you’re more advanced at marketing your services than most of the people we’ve interviewed.
Susan: Well, I will say I am not getting a lot of traffic off of the site yet, because it takes a long time. There are still some elements in the site that I am not doing quite right yet. We need to have a lot of links on the site and I haven't gotten around to getting into those shared links.
CG: Any other things you do to get clients?
Susan: I also get referrals, and – fortunately – my boyfriend is now Strategic Marketing Director for a direct marketing agency in California. Sometimes they get leads for customers that are too small for them to handle and they pass them to me. I have clients who are giving me other leads. And, of course, my activity in the local Direct Marketing Association digs up business.
There are just all sorts of ways, but, early on, I would do almost everything by phone. I would look in the paper, and if I saw that someone had just been promoted to a position of marketing director, I would call that person.
After a while, when I didn't hear back, I would pick up the phone and call again. Interestingly enough, a lot of them would say, “I haven't thought about talking to you, but I do have a project. Maybe I should go ahead and give it to you. Just for being there.”
CG: Now speaking about the web, do you think that there is a difference between someone who responds to mail versus somebody who responds through email.
Why Direct Mail Still Matters…
Susan: I am going to tell you what I learned in direct marketing. And this is not necessary for your copywriters, but more for every businessperson out there. Even though 90 percent of my clients are technology companies, you will miss 20 percent of your prospects if you do not market to them through the mail in addition to what you are doing online.
Every time any client of mine has ever tested marketing without direct mail versus with direct mail, direct mail always raises response by 20 percent. Never fails. That's what I love about being in direct marketing: It's measurable. People who do it right know exactly what's working and what isn't. And they know what kind of response they’re going to get from everything they do.
CG: Can you tell us about one of your most successful campaigns?
Susan: My most successful campaign - and this was not business-to-business - spent $18,000 and made six million dollars. That was one direct marketing campaign mailed to 100,000 people selling condominiums.
Seven Critical Questions to Ask Your Client
CG: Do you get a royalty on that money?
Susan: Oh, no. There are people in business who do charge based on response rates. But they are mostly in the cost-per-lead – or the charge-per-lead – or consumer-type environments.
CG: So you get a flat fee for every project you work on?
Susan: I charge by the project.
CG: Well, let's talk a little bit about your methodology. For example, when you get an assignment, what are some of the things that you do? Is there information that you need the client to supply you with?
Susan: I have been asked by clients over the years - although not often - if I have a questionnaire or a checklist for them. I have tried to create them but no single checklist ever fits every client. So I just gave up. But here’s what I need to know: (1) What are you marketing? (2) Who is the decision maker? (3) Who influences the decision? (4) What are the companies? (5) What's the industry like and how are you marketing to them - what channel? (6) What do you expect the campaign to do? (7) And the last one: What are the customers’ biggest pains, and how does your product or service alleviate those pains?
Uncovering Your Prospect’s Biggest Fear
CG: Do you request that they put the information down in writing, or is it a conversation?
Susan: A phone call.
CG: Once you have that information what happens next?
Susan: I write the copy.
CG: You just get straight into it.
Susan: Yes.
CG: Do you spend time trying to come up with the theme or the idea for the promotion?
Susan: I need to back up a little bit and make sure you understand exactly what I do. I do not consider myself a creative person. I consider myself a technologist. I don't brainstorm. I don't do themes. Yes, every once in a while a client that is doing a trade show might want me to help them come up with the theme, and I do that.
But the direct marketing I do has been tested and proven. There are elements that must be in every message and there is an order in which the elements must appear, period.
I know what those elements are and in which order they must appear. Once I know the pains of the individual I'm marketing to, once I know whom I am talking to, and how the product solves that pain, that's all I need to know.
CG: So then you jump right into the letter?
Susan: I go right into it.
CG: Do you write the headlines first or do you go right into the lead or the body copy?
Susan: In business-to-business we really don't print copy on the outside envelope anymore. Well, if you are doing a survey to try and generate leads, there might be copy on the outside. It might say something like, “Spend two minutes giving us your opinion on xxx.” That xxx is something that relates to their business. But for the most part, it's an envelope with no copy on the outside. Return address and the address of the recipient. That’s it.
The Five Proven Elements Your Sales Letter Should
Always Have, and In What Order…
CG: What about the letter?
Susan: At the top of the letter I might have a Johnson Box. And then I write the letter in this order: (1) Here’s your biggest pain. (2) How easily you can solve this pain. (3) Here’s what you are going to learn if you ask for this information, or here’s what you are going to learn if you make this phone call or here’s what you are going to learn if you go to this website or sign on to this web cast. (4) Here are the benefits you are going to get out of it. And (5) a push to do it now.
Basically I have the benefit, expand on the benefit, back up the benefit, give the other benefits and a call to action. And that's it. I am fast because it's all there.
CG: When you finish the draft do you let it rest for a few days and then go back and edit it? Do you show it to a friend or someone else to read?
Susan: No. I'm an editor. I write the first draft very quickly. The more days the client gives me, the better their copy is going to be. I tell them that up front. I say, “If you give me five days you will get excellent copy. If you give me two days, you will get good copy, but not great copy.”
CG: What is your normal turn-around time?
Susan: Three days.
CG: Three days?
Susan: Well, you know, I don’t have time to take longer – and my clients don’t have time either. It goes like this: The client says, “We are releasing this product on the 15th of September and I have to have copy from you in four days”. I ask, “Why didn’t you call me two months ago?” They answer, “Well, the upgrade on the product wasn’t completed two months ago...” Do you see what I mean? Every once in a while, somebody gives me more time, and I just faint.
CG: How involved are you in the design of the final copy?
Susan: Depends upon the client. I'm very knowledgeable and opinionated about direct marketing design - which, by the way, is different from advertising design.
And if the client will let me be involved, I will jump on it and be involved. If not, I just give them copy and away they go. Sometimes clients ask me to find a designer, which I absolutely love because I know some great designers. I work with them and I charge a little more to take the time to manage the designer. I always have the designer bill directly to the client though, I don’t have anyone bill through me.
Determining the Product’s Biggest Benefits
CG: We were talking a few minutes ago about the prospect’s pain and the benefits. How do you figure out the benefits of a product? Is that a process where you sit down with a piece of paper and make a T-grid and say, “These are the features and these are the benefit?”
Susan: Well, unfortunately I don’t have to do that. I say unfortunately, because it’s probably not the right way to do it. I know businesses. I know how IT directors think. I know how business managers think. I know how CEOs think. I know how HR people think. I have written to them for so many years. I know all that.
Let me give an example here. An IT director at a financial institution has to meet regulations for the Sarbanes-Oxley Act.
According to the client, their biggest pain is Sarbanes-Oxley. Well I know they don’t have enough resources. I know they don’t have enough time. I know that they have users screaming at them to fix this and fix that. I know that they have businesses screaming at them to make them compliant, because if they are not, they are going to put the whole organization at risk.
So the client just tells me which of those pains is the biggest pain. Then I write to it, and talk about benefit. This product is going to make their job easier. It's going to save them money. It's going to save them time. It's going to get people off their back. It's going to do one of those things. Basically all the benefits in the world are the same. It’s the same pains and the same benefits to everybody. You just have to home in on what they are.
And once you see what the product delivers you know exactly what the benefits are. So, I don’t have to do any type of analysis.
The Secret to a Stellar Campaign
Written in 30 Hours
CG: Susan, let's talk about The 15 Minute Guide to Winning Presentations. Now, is this one that took you three days to complete?
Susan: No, no. I have done so many of these kinds of projects now. I basically bid 30 working hours.
CG: Wow! 30 Hours to write this and you’re done. That’s great. Just a little over 3 working days.
Susan: That’s what it takes me.
CG: So this is a business-to-business promotion?
Susan: Yes. This is considered pre-generation. By the way, this is a long time ago in 1999. Proxima sells multi-media projectors to business people. They are looking for people who might be in the market for a multi-media projector.
Who would that be? Well that would be people who give presentations.
CG: Did it mail in this format?
Susan: No. Here’s what happened. It was a self-mailer (which I do not do any more unless they are a small retail establishment). It folded up, then it slipped down and it was over-sized. It was probably six by nine. But I did not come up with the headline on that. The headline on the outside of the mailer was something that the company was already using. I wrote all the inside copy and it was my idea to do the guide as the promotion. That was all my idea.
CG: Did you remember how many pieces mailed and how well it worked?
Susan: I know how well it worked. I don’t have quantitative details, but I know that it was like all the things I do. It was spectacularly successful.
CG: It was your idea to create this particular format?
Susan: Well, yes and no. I went to my client and said, “You want to generate leads. So, here’s the best way to do it. You need to offer something free. If they ask for it, it will tell you immediately that they are a prospect for your product.” I did a lot of these kinds of booklets for other people. I saw how well they worked and I wrote all of them, so I had experience doing it.
So I told the client, “This is the best way to do it.” Of course, these days, you don’t print the booklets anymore - you put them online as a PDF and let people print them out.
CG: So the booklet generates the lead?
Susan: People send in the reply device of the self-mailer or pick up the phone and request a copy of the free booklet. And, of course, it comes without any cost or obligation. (That has to be in the copy of the booklet.) The people that ask for the booklet become prospects that are then funneled to the sales department. Actually, Proxima does not sell direct to the consumer. Proxima sells their product to third party resellers. They turned the leads over to their resellers. (It made sales results very difficult to track, because the resellers don’t track and pass that information back to Proxima.)
A Campaign So Successful, Salesman
Ask for More Copies of the Booklet
CG: Seems like that would be tough information to get from resellers.
Susan: Yes, it is tough, but a lot of business-to-business companies operate that way. However, I do remember the client telling me very specifically that the booklet was so popular - not only did they use it at trade shows as a give-away, but the resellers kept asking for more of them so the salesman could take them with them.
CG: Oh, wow! That’s great information. And a sign that it worked.
Susan: Plus, the client hired me to do four other projects after this one, so I assume they were happy with my work.
CG: Did you do a similar kind of thing for their other products?
Susan: No the other projects were different kinds of projects.
CG: An interesting point about the booklet. When salesmen are passing them around, you know it’s really working.
Susan: But you see, every time I’ve done a booklet for anyone and they’ve mailed it to the right market it's always been successful. They are either online guides or checklists, white papers, assessments or case studies. It doesn’t matter what they are. If someone asks for it, they are automatically saying, “I am a prospect for what you are selling.” Even though the marketing message is not selling the product, it's selling the offer.
Here’s Why, With Lead Generation,
You Never Sell the Product
CG: Why is that?
Susan: Because you don’t want to sell the product. You don’t want people to think, “I am going to get called on. I don’t want to get called on.”
CG: I'm assuming because you have had so much success, that when you handed in the copy for this booklet, the client didn’t really have any edits?
Susan: Oh, I build edits into my bid. And here is the sad part of the evolution of my business. For 23 years, I never used a contract. It was always, “Here’s what I am going to charge. I do the work. I bill the client, they pay.”
After 23 years, I started getting stiffed and I had to start using a contract. On the contract it says this bid includes two sets of minor revisions. Then I spell it out - no more than ten percent of the copy. And if the outline of the project changes, or I have to do more that was not included in the original understanding of the project – such as more interviews, more parts, more pieces - or if the revisions are more extensive than outlined, I will charge additionally. But I tell the client ahead of time what those additional charges are going to be. Basically I reserve the right to re-bid the project.
CG: It’s funny how business changes over the years. I want to get back to you finding your niche. It seems like your experience selling radio helped you an awful lot.
Susan: Oh, it did. I also find and this is good copywriter advice: If I say I do everything, then I am competing against every copywriter in the entire world.
But if I say I only do direct marketing and I only do business-to-business, when I come in contact with people, guess who they think of when they have a job that fits that slot?
It’s actually probably getting me more business. And when I market to agencies, which I haven’t really done for a while, I say, “I do nothing but direct marketing and I do nothing but business-to-business.” And when they have a project that falls in that category, they always call me.
And it separates me in the minds of my prospects from the rest of the guys or girls out there.
CG: I think that's super advice. Our readers should be doing that very thing you are saying. Many who are just starting out want to be everything to everybody – and that’s a very difficult thing to do.
Why Specializing Often Leads to More Clients
Susan: Well, say you are a teller at a bank and you want to be a copywriter. Well, shoot, specialize in financial. Then you can say, “I’ve got experience in the business.” People have more confidence when they hire you.
CG: Exactly. Susan, may I ask you a few fun questions? This is one I love to ask copywriters, because the responses are all over the place. If you couldn’t write copy anymore, what else would you do?
Susan: I’d retire.
CG: Would you? That would be it… nothing else?
Susan: Well, I am at that age where retirement is on the horizon. But I will continue to work after I leave the copywriting business. And I will probably take a job that doesn’t have any homework, because copywriting has homework.
CG: Please explain what you mean.
Susan: I have to work on weekends and nights because the jobs have to be done.
CG: Is there any one client or funny experience you can share with us that you just sort of giggled to yourself as you were doing the project?
Susan: Yes. It has to do with the campaign I mentioned earlier… the one that cost the client $18,000 and made them six million dollars.
Now this was in the old days when design was not done online. Design was done the old fashioned way: pasted up on boards. The art boards were sent to the printer. The printer made cels and all that kind of thing. Well this mailing consisted of an outside envelope that said, “Kiss your landlord goodbye and get $2000 worth of free furniture.” This was 100,000 pieces, mailed to people who lived in apartments, to try and get them get buy their first house. Only it was a condominium, which most people in apartments can probably afford.
CG: Makes sense, go on.
Susan: Well in letter, it said if you come out to the property to see the model condos and you buy a condo, and enter your name in our contest, you could win a $2000 gift certificate for furniture from this fancy local furniture store.
It was a good offer, a brilliant offer. Of course it worked. They sold 63 units. The mailing also had a brochure that was about the sweepstakes.
Well the “s” fell off of the art board of the little brochure. And it was printed that way. It said “weepstakes.” It mailed that way.
CG: Oh no. Instead of sweepstakes, it was weepstakes?
Susan: Well, the client was absolutely horrified.
CG: No wonder. On a 100,000-piece mailing, that’s a major mistake.
Susan: The agency said to the client, “Let's just wait and see how it works before we talk about reprinting and re-mailing the whole campaign right.” Well, after the client counted their money, they didn’t care any more about the mistake.
CG: That’s funny.
Susan: That is one of my greatest design lectures: It doesn’t matter. Well it matters… when it comes to maybe the prestige of the company or something. But some of these little things are not that important. Because people - especially consumers - believe in business. People are so busy they aren’t paying that much attention.
CG: Or not as much as you think they would.
Susan: Right.
CG: Susan, I have one last question for you, and then I will let you go. I mentioned earlier this is going to people who want to become a copywriter. So is there any particular piece of advice you can offer?
Get a Job Writing Before You
Become a Freelance Copywriter
Susan: Well I think that they should try to get a job writing copy for somebody else before they go out on their own. You’ve got to have a portfolio or you will never get any business. People want to see what you have done.
CG: So are you saying, they should get employed somewhere first?
Susan: They don’t have to get a job as a copywriter in an agency or anything, but they could get a job with a company that needs somebody writing for them. You’ve got to build a portfolio or nobody will hire you. That’s a nice little piece of advice, but it’s also my most important piece of advice. You don’t have to be the best writer in the world to make a good living as a freelance copywriter. In fact, do you know what is more important than talent?
CG: Tell us.
Susan: Reliability. And in 26 years of writing copy, I have never missed a deadline. Ever.
CG: You deserve an award for that.
Susan: Well, I do. Now, I don’t promise more than I know I can deliver, but - to me - missing a deadline is like killing somebody’s first-born child. It’s just not an acceptable part of my work ethic.
CG: But I can tell you from experience, there are copywriters who do miss deadlines. So, to hear you haven’t, that’s refreshing.
Susan: I have actually gotten business from other copywriters who have let people down. They called me and said, “I was supposed to have this tomorrow and I haven’t heard back from so and so and I can’t get ahold of them (or whatever) can you do it?” I say, “You bet I can.”
CG: And you get the work. So really that’s one more way to get clients.
As a Copywriter, You Don’t Have to Write Perfect Copy…
As Long As You Have the Perfect Offer and List
Susan: Reliability can make up for a lot.
CG: Sure sounds like it.
Susan: Here’s the other secret in direct marketing your readers should know: The list of people that you are marketing to - whether it be online or off - and the offer that you are making, have a significantly larger portion of the success of the campaign than the copy or the design. So, ultimately, I know I am very good at what I do. I'm one of the best. I really do think I am one of the best in the country, to be honest with you. I am not shy about saying that, but I also know that what I write doesn’t have to be perfect.
CG: You’re absolutely right. Offer and list are just as important.
Susan: And lastly, tell your readers not to get married to anything they write. You cannot get married to what you write because you will just be miserable your whole career. There are always other ways to do things that are going to work just as well. I don’t write for awards, I write for results.
CG: I think that’s an important point. Well, I don’t want to take up any more of your time.
Susan: I appreciate you doing this for me in an hour.
CG: Well, we’re glad you did it. I’m glad we got a chance to meet over the phone, and maybe one day we will meet in person.
CG: Thank you.
Susan: Thank you.
